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Endgame

Systema Ptw Vs. Celcius Ctw Vs. G&d Dtw vs. A&K PTW

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Endgame

This is will be an opinion and discussion regarding the titled subject.

 

Any interjections regarding anything other than the titled subject and will be deleted, repeat offenses will be deleted and a warning will be issued.

 

Any derogatory remarks and/or comments will also be removed with a warning issue on first offense.

 

I want this to be an above board conversation so an informed decision can be made.

Edited by Endgame

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CStahl

You might want to add the A&K TW to the list.

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starblade54

Systema: everything that you have heard about it is true, yet it costs a small fortune. pretty much you get what you pay for

 

Celcius CTW: systema clone for about half the price, decent enough, could use some tweaking and tuning, still compatible with systema parts

 

G&D DTW: decent enough for a super low cost planetary gearbox gun, Beastmug had a cylinder go south, but if you get one cheap enough, could be a very very cheap base for a systema replacement project

 

A&K TW: i havent heard anything about them, ill let someone else chime in on that.

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hrturner

Only used the PTW and DTW parts. Seen the A&K TW video, so this is where the opinion is formulated.

 

PTW - Solid, precise, and ingenious. The build quality is second to none and the system works flawlessly when un-tampered with and/or cared for. If you mess with it and/or don't take care of it you will have issues. If you go this route don't use non-systema stuff, especially when it comes to parts that are critical to the gun shooting (Cylinder, GB, electronics, hop-up, barrel, mags, etc). Obviously everyone will have their own "MY PTW is the bestest and will handle anything I throw at it" but then again what weapon haven't we heard that about?

 

DTW - While the idea was fantastic (make a cheap clone that competes with CTW/PTW) the implementation was pretty terrible. The DTW parts while close to the systema, have caused enough issues in a PTW that I have written them off.

 

CTW - Have heard the older one's electronics were horrid but the newer ??MX3?? is supposed to be better. No first hand experience so can't say much.

 

A&K TW - Again no first hand experience but from the videos and from handling other A&K weapons, Wouldn't even think about ordering one of these.

 

 

Maybe the short review of an elitist or whatever you wanna call it but have been around the block a time or two and can generally pick turds out of a line up no matter how polished.

  • Upvote 1

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Eagle

Many of the PTW/CTW/DTW parts are compatible but the latter of the two are not 100% clones by any means. If you're serious about having a TW style replica, its best just to save for the PTW. Most people think you have to spend some huge budget on a PTW ($1500+). While there is no "cheap" PTW by AEG standards, there are good buys out there. If you can do a little work or are patient enough, you can find PTW's under $1000 (Beastmug got his base PTW for less than $800).

 

To be reliably effective, the DTW and CTW both need upgrades out of the box. New cylinders (Systema or FCC, $100+ each), new electronics (MOSFET and on board computer, well over $200-300+), a new motor ($120+), and new hop up units / barrels ($80+). For the same price as buying a new CTW/DTW and upgrading it, you can buy a 2008-09 PTW and have the reliability you already need, minus a motor rewinding or replacement if it has not already been upgraded.

 

I've spent well over what I've put into my PTW into previous AEG's before the PTWs time and I've sold or broke all of them at some point. I'm not saying the PTW is a bullet proof system, but its worth what you put into it. If you buy used and take care of it, you can keep most of your resale. Try selling your AEG for anything less than 40% or greater markdown, and you're going to have a bad time. a PTW could go for 20% or less of what youve put into it if you buy used, depending on its condition and how well maintained its been.

 

For the price of the other two systems, given they need out of the box upgrades to perform like the Systema and don't maintain their resale value like the Syetemas do, its wise to simply save for the PTW platform before cashing out early.

  • Upvote 2

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Vacceo

It´s A&K, Smoke. They have nothing to do with Mr. Kalashnikov´s creation.

 

The only platforms with planetary gearboxes of any kind are AR´s and MP5´s.

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targetpractice

Stay on target, fella. It seems that the consensus (albeit from two Systema users) is to just get the Systema and skip the QC issues entirely.

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Endgame

In my understanding, a majority, if not all of ModSquad have or have had some form of TW, and their opinions weigh pretty heavy with me. If I recall, I believe Harvest once owned a PTW and I'd like to get his input, as well as anyone else who has owned or currently owns a TW.

 

Rated R got me into a DTW users group, but that hasn't yielded the results I've been looking for other than what Eagle has already mentioned.

 

I've considered ASCU and Mosfets for my existing AEGs to improve their fire control if my fact finding doesn't yield more positive than negative search results.

 

The price tag of the DTW has a very strong allure and what is the cause of this discussion. The thought of selling one of my AEGs or scraping together some money has crossed my mind at one point or another, as I know that my other half wouldn't allow another airsoft gun into the house without one going out, but only as a last resort of sorts.

 

I appreciate the insight and information, guys. Keep it coming.

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targetpractice

Well End, I'm starting off on an M4 project starting this fall/winter that would involve a mosfet. If you can hold off on a decision we can see what comes of it. It's more of a matter of personal curiosity for me anyway.

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Sky Marshal Harvest

I owned two PTWs, and there are days I really regret coming off of either of them. Neither one ever gave me any grief, and performed beautifully for the duration of my having them. One of those PTWs is still in Pointmans hands, and the other is somewhere in the UK right now.

 

PTWs come with their issues.

 

1.) If for some reason a part breaks, if you aren't mechnically inclined you are paying through your ass to get it fixed. Motors used to be a prime example of an early life fix that needed to be done for a number of PTWs to reasonably voice concern.

2.) Proprietary, expensive magazines.

3.) .25 and heavier BBs messed with the spring inside the older magazines. This may have changed, I do not know, but I know people had issues back when due to the spring strength inside the magazine, and the weigh of BBs they were using to get that PTW laser rifle accuracy.

4.) Which brings me to this point. PTWs are ultra fucking picky about what they eat. Mine HATED Bio BBs, and just spazzed shit any time I tried to feed them something bio.

5.) If something catastrophically fails with your PTW, there are not a great number of techs around, that may have changed since I left the scene.

 

That being said, you may get NEAR PTW trigger response, accuracy, range, and consistency out of another brand of AEG that you dump a load of money into, but you will not get PTW level performance. PTWs are one of a kind, and I've seen some of the other clones out on the field in their earlier days when I was loping around Ohio by my lonesome for a couple of years.

 

These pieces never stood up to, or performed anything like a PTW. They kinda sounded like one, but they always fell short.

 

The best bet is to not try and make something that isn't a PTW into a PTW. CTW, DTWs, WTFeverTWs are not PTWs, and nor will they ever be.

 

The newer lines of PTWs, or older generation PTWs that have had the little quirky things in them fixed, are the best bet as far as how and where to go.

 

If you can wade through all of this, you will be very happy with a PTW. They make for excellent, long lived pieces that will do just as you ask every time you pull the trigger IF YOU TAKE CARE OF IT. They are the Hatori Hanzo sword of the M4 platform in airsoft, no AEG or TW wannabe can even shine remotely close. If you wanna hit pie pans at 70 yards sub 400fps, then you want a PTW. If you want bleeding fast trigger response and reaction out of your rifle, you want a PTW. It all comes with a price, however, you do pay for what you get. Paying less than 500 for a 'TW' and expecting to get some kind semi-PTW replay value out of it, out of the box, is asking for tragedy. This is coming from someone who owned two separate generations of PTW.

 

Now you ask, why don't I have my PTWs anymore?

 

Time and drive made me sell them. I shouldn't have, I was being a stupid man child when I did it and that's all there is to it.

 

I have taken the Path of Potat now, though, and I can never look back to the stench and grime that is western weaponry, Potat forgive me for my sins and transgressions. Weapons of the glorious east are all I may wrap my beefy banana peelers around now.

 

That being said...

 

The day Systema comes out with a fucking PTW AK I'm having one :|.

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Vacceo

Just for references, I have had a PTW on my side and several Real Sword AEG´s. They are not close nor they are comparable.

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CStahl

I have a Systema PTW and love it. Not because it outperforms everything on the field, because I know an AEG with enough money in it will best my PTW.

 

One of the main reasons I prefer it is because I hate opening gearboxes and taking aegs down. The PTW tears down just like a real AR15 which in turn means its super easy to swap parts should I break a cylinder or want to change my CQB weapon with low FPS to a long range weapon with high FPS I can do it within 30 seconds by just changing uppers. As for the quality of the PTW, it is the highest quality replica of an AR15 I have held in my hands. Since I have not held and other TW's I cannot comment on their quality and performance. But since they are clones of the Systema I would have to assume they are of lesser quality. On a cost aspect of the gun obviously the initial cost is way higher, but to get a standard AEG to the same performance with the same quality would cost the same if not more. Although if you find the right deals you can come out decently well and save money over buying and upgrading an AEG. I found my 09 Systema Challenge Kit Build with some nice extras for $700 which for a functioning PTW with extras was a good deal. That being said it was advertised as working flawlessly but needed the hand grip changed on it as it started creating to much pressure on the motor for it to spin.

 

Does having a PTW mean I am done with AEG's? No, I still have two AEG's as back up, and will always have one on the field in case my PTW does go down.

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SASQUATCH

I've gotta say, if you're set on a TW, you'd be hard pressed to find anything that fancies itself a PTW that will outshine a PTW out of the box. PTW has the highest resale value as well.

 

So, my vote is for PTW.

 

With that being said, I am of the strong opinion that you can build an AEG that performs just as good as a PTW without the bells an whistles (and price tag). You won't have a locking bolt, or SYSTEMA written on the side, but you'll have something that pegs human targets at 225'+ no problem, at under 400 fps, with Retardulous trigger response, and variable rate of fire. And you can do it for ~$600.

 

But wait, there's more!

 

Anybody can do it. Anybody who can work on a gearbox can do it with a little time, and TLC. And, in my opinion that is half the fun.

 

But PTW's are absolutely outstanding systems. They get my vote if you're set on that type of thing.

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Comrade S_Z

They make for excellent, long lived pieces that will do just as you ask every time you pull the trigger IF YOU TAKE CARE OF IT.

That is the key. I had one that was abused by it's original owner, I sold it rather than completely rebuild it. Systema has the engineering down, almost every issue I had was build material related.

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hrturner

With that being said, I am of the strong opinion that you can build an AEG that performs just as good as a PTW without the bells an whistles (and price tag). You won't have a locking bolt, or SYSTEMA written on the side, but you'll have something that pegs human targets at 225'+ no problem, at under 400 fps, with Retardulous trigger response, and variable rate of fire. And you can do it for ~$600.

 

But wait, there's more!

 

Anybody can do it. Anybody who can work on a gearbox can do it with a little time, and TLC. And, in my opinion that is half the fun.

 

 

Sorry to derail but very much disagree with this... I have seen people spend hours upon hours messing with their AEG/misc airsoft weaponry only to further screw it up. In all honesty, working and rebuilding AEG's is a learned skill that requires a certain mindset/methodology. Many may disagree but time has shown that not just anyone can work on an AEG and make it solid. This become even more apparent when you take into account the tight tolerances and complex electrical systems of a *TW system.

 

[/.02]

  • Upvote 2

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SASQUATCH

I was sort of referencing my build really, but I've seen much better AEG's than mine. I hit torso targets all day at a measured 225 at no higher than 394 fps, and I'm sitting right around 30 rps. Compared to the PTW's I've played with, and against, that is comparable. The upgrades were a TBB, High Torque Motor, Chimera FET, AOE mods, and good compression work. All I'm saying is that it definitely can be done :)

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Spectre

Technically, couldn't you include WE's katana system in this debate/discussion?

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FN Pope

Ive had the chance to handle a PTW and also a CTW both seemed great were amazing to shoot, only thing that has bested either in trigger response has been the P* I have handled, and honestly if fired side by side I doubt there would be a difference. I thought long and hard about picking up a PTW when before I built my P* and there are some days that I wish I had gone with the PTW. Guess Im getting off topic a bit, from the bit of time I have had with both the PTW and the CTW I loved them both, but I cannot speak to their longevity, they shot well when they were in my hands and the system itself is incredible, after you make accommodations for their little quirks, at least thats the way it was described to me when I was looking for info on them, hope this helps.

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Rated R

Endgame,

I would be willing to let you try mine out, so you could see the difference in performance to your AEG.

Edited by Rated R

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SASQUATCH

Edit:

 

Misinterpreted Rated-R's post.

 

Carry on :)

Edited by SASQUATCH

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Rated R

I have already established that I have played with, and against THE ALMIGHTY SYSTEMA. That means that I have also pulled the trigger on one. It was nice. SYSTEMA PTW's are very nice, but they are (in my opinion) absolutely not worth $1,000+. I'm sorry that I disagree with you all.

 

If you have a PTW and you like it, then good for you. If you have a JG M4 and you like it, then good for you. It's about preference, and I prefer not to drop $1,000 on a gun when I can build something that performs excellent for $600.

 

Endgame, if you'd like a TW, then I'll jump on the bandwagon and say get a PTW.

 

Can we please get back on topic?

 

My comment was to Endgame, just in case you were referring to me.

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SASQUATCH

 

 

My comment was to Endgame, just in case you were referring to me.

 

It was. I apologize. I edited my post accordingly.

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Rated R

 

 

It was. I apologize. I edited my post accordingly.

 

No worries. My post was kinda vague I guess. Lol

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Endgame

Endgame,

I would be willing to let you try mine out, so you could see the difference in performance to your AEG.

I may have to take you up on that. I'd always like to do a side by side comparison. I know it would be an apples to oranges comparison, but still informative nonetheless.

 

I definitely value each and every opinion made here and I will definitely take them ALL into account when a true decision is made.

 

Thanks again for taking the time to respond to this topic. I'll be locking this thread. I believe I have what I need to know.

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